Hit rating

[Rolt-]

Clickable link for Rolt's post.

Thank you dear sir! How'd you do it?

[Kore nametooshort]

Even more in WSG, i agree that nullifying the dodge is a great DPS increase.
Even more against rogues and hunters.

as for the spidersilk drape... thats the problem i dont see a warrior or a rogue with it on.
actually any class that doesn't take advantage of the spell power on it shouldn'T be having it in.

the problem is that 24% is too hard to attain and in the end are dropping a hell of a lot of DPS just to get hit cap for the very same dps output as you'd have if you weren't hit cap. thats a great exemple of being over geared toward hit for no reason.

so i say beware of what you do, throwing hit rating against your primary stat is a seriously bad thing depending on the situation. know that even if you get DPS by capping hit, you actually lose it as well by dropping stats just to get hit cap.

like everything in the twink community its all about balance. you might be dpsing a lot by not missing, but you might ending with the same numbers if you decide to just drop some hit rating to keep some stats.

just think before over evaluating things.

Capping the 24% for OH is lunacy, dont even think about trying to do it there are only a few situations where getting additional hit for OH is a good idea, e.g. on a procable OH i know its viable to gear for some additional hit on a 39 double goose rogue for instance.

Anywho, onto the main point of your thread. Spidersilk drape for an unhit capped warrior is BiS, dont let the fact that it has SP on it put you off. The next best is usually agreed to be sentry cape. This cape has the same amount of stamina that spidersilk has so its a toss up between 4hit and 5 agi. Now 4hit give substantially more dmg than 5 agi. 4hit ~= 2% dmg increase whereas 5 agi give 0.55% dmg increase and 0.13% dodge. From this you can see that spidersilk gives more dmg and more reliability than sentry. You can also argue that spidersilk gives more dmg mitigation through lack of hamstring misses or w/e.

On a rogue the story is almost exactly the same except the rogue gets 4 ap 0.53% crit and 0.23% dodge. Still, the conclusion seems clear to me, the 2% dmg and reliablity are preferable.

If you want hunter stats too here they are: 0.42% crit, 0.15%dodge, 4RAP vs 2% dmg and reliability.

Thats all the classes that dont use SP accounted for and the spidersilk cape is superior for all of them up untill the hit cap.

[Scadoosh]

The reality is, that attacks that don't hit, can't crit either. So getting them 5% hit chance, is like "adding" a 5% crit chance, due to the fact that attacks that don't hit (like mentioned above) can't crit either.

-Jaxel

Not quite right. Because of the single roll of the Attack Table, a hit is a hit, and a crit is a crit. Both have the chance to miss.
"The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses." --Blue post from Aeus.

For auto-attacks there is a documented and tested single roll attack table, with each possible outcome listed below in order of "preference" of the attack (for the sake of this thread, i'll only include outcomes for PvP):

• Miss
• Dodge
• Parry
• Block
• Critical Hit
• Hit

If any of the above percentages reaches 100%, the outcomes below the stat that brings the percentage to 100% are knocked off the table. For example, if you have a 24% chance to miss (DW) and a 30% crit rate, and you are fighting someone (face to face, not from behind) with 25% dodge, 10% parry, 10% block, you will only get an ordinary hit 1% of the time. Now you see why the statement "So getting them 5% hit chance, is like "adding" a 5% crit chance" is incorrect. Getting a 5% increase in hit will not change your crit (it will stay at 30%), but what it will do is subtract from your miss percentage. +Hit is better described as -Miss. So in the above example, with a 5% increase to hit, you are effectively subtracting 5% from your miss percentage, resulting in a larger percentage left over for the Hit at the bottom of the table.
There might be a two-roll table for special (yellow) attacks. See the Attack Table link below for that info.
So as not to plagiarize, i got most of my info from an Elitist Jerks post (Full Article Here) and the article on Attack Table from wowwiki here.

[ArthurianKnight]

Kore, i totally agree that unhit capped people must count it in if they aren'T capped yet or anything of the sort.

all together you guys are are trying to get away with miss ont he table, its cool and all but it doesn'T change the fact that the moves can be parried or blocked or even dodged if the move isn't an AOE. you are getting miss out of the way, but it actually helps you dodge/block/parry more if you're stats were affected by miss due to it being too big. a good exemple of that would be to hit cap offhand as well on a rogue, that would make him get to its dodge/parry/block percentage way easier and would actually help him survive more.

as menitonned the table cannot reach more then 100% so if a stat gets too high its gonna take precedence over the lower stats and thus end up taking away your crit or your dodge.

thats why i think hit rating is over abused for nothing in much of the time.
its so difficult to see the limit between over and under using hit rating.

[Trespasser]

Now lets give a good example:
Lets say you got 0% hit and 25% crit and your target has 5% parry and 15% dodge.
Now the table would look like this for your melee swings

                chance per attack|total
    * Miss         : 24%         | 24%
    * Dodge        : 15%         | 39%
    * Parry        :  5%         | 44%
    * Block        :  0%         | 44%
    * Critical Hit : 25%         | 69%
    * Hit          :             |100%

Now what is left is to calculate your chance to hit. Which is 100%-69%=31%.
By increasing your hit rating by 5% you reduce the miss to 19% increasing the hit to 36%. So it does nothing to the opponents dodge or parry
Now if this target was a rogue and would pop evasion his dodge would increase to 65% and the table would become like this:

                chance per attack|total
    * Miss         : 24%         | 24%
    * Dodge        : 65%         | 89%
    * Parry        :  5%         | 94%
    * Block        :  0%         | 94%
    * Critical Hit : 6%         | 100%
    * Hit          :  0%         |100%

Because of the huge amount of dodge hit has been completely pushed of the table and crit was reduced to only 6%. Now if you would increase your hit by 5% you will increase your crit chance to 11%. This would mean that hit is always better in this case because it doesn't matter how much extra crit you get it will never become more then 6% if you don't increase your hit.

BTW: I am still working on my rogue calculator and I have now added a stats comparison button which calculated the dps gain from adding 1 point of hit rating, crit rating , AP, agi and expertise rating. You can find the program here http://twinkinfo.com/forums/10-19-br...out-there.html but I haven't uploaded a version yet with the stats compare button.
But to give you a small preview this is how it looks for my own rogue. (211AP, 10crit rating, 15 hit rating, 109agility and 8expertise rating (15expertise))

Adding 1 point of AP is worth : 0,1278381
Adding 1 point of Agility is worth : 0,1944885
Adding 1 point of Crit rating is worth : 0,1730751
Adding 1 point of hit rating is worth : 0,3424225
Adding 1 point of expertise rating is worth : 0,9140625

As you can see even while I am already hit capped even for night elf's hit is worth the most (except for expertise but getting more is impossible for me)

[Crilicilyn]

lol reroll human xD, nice calc btw. Hit is very important and having a proc based OH means going over hit cap isn't bad especially if your not missing any stats to do so.

[Zombie]

Hit rating is all good if you've got BOA's.

Not worth the stats you lose if you don't have BOA's though. I usually roll with spidersilk drape and deviate scale belt. But there's not way I'm ditching either of my seals for the simple pearl ring.

[Kore nametooshort]

simple pearl ring is worth the stats of either seal. Lets compare it against wrynn

4stam, 3agi, 3str Vs roughly 2% extra damage plus reliablity

damage wise thats 6ap, 0.3% crit vs 2% dmg, lets simplify this alittle further
6ap Vs 1.7% dmg You can see here that the hit rating is far superior to the ap.

4stam Vs reliability ; if you miss a vital swing such as a gouge, or whatever, you can easily lose more hp than the 4 stamina gives. To me the survivability with the hit rating is better

There are probably some small rounding errors but the verdict is still the same, hit rating wins.

I know that it can seem horrid to "lose" the stats, but you arent losing them, the hit rating is just a hidden stat.

You cannot claim that the fight you lost was all due to RNG and thus wasnt a fair outcome, because you chose not to gear for more hit rating and accepted the risk.

[ArthurianKnight]

it all depends on what you want, i dont see a hunter with less then 1k life being any good even with all the hit rating he can get. actually anybody with less then 1k shouldn'T even consider dropping more HP just to get hit rating. of course i'm not talking about those with lucky fishing hat and AGM, but to those who like to twink and fight in the gulch while still trying those once in a while.

let's be real, all those who say that fighting without agm and lucky fishing hat are nothing but stupid people who are just very lucky to be able to get those on during first or second day of trying. it takes literrally months to get those and seriously i'm not gonna wait all that time and stop playing because of it. in such a case, checking up on hit rating versus stamina or mana might be less important. but dropping it to zero would be totally stupid. certain items are BiS like most of you like to say, so why not join the good to the fun ?

i totally understand spidersilk drape and deviate scale belt for those who can put them on. i can understand the ring as well if you are a caster. but i dont see the point in pushing even more if you are to drop your survival for a bit more dps that probably wont have time to be used up.

again back to my first statement, hit rating is a must, but overestimate it to the point of losing greater stats just to get the dps increase. survivng the gulch is already hard has it is, let's not give the oppponents more chance at killing us then they need to.



nice maths...
there are only 1 effective problem into your calcs...
you knocked off hit when it is miss chances that you should of knocked off. since hit rating gets off the miss chances. thus hit capping the offhand, 24% might end up adding a lot more depth to the game, but then again i'm the first one that says that hit capping too much is not good so i wouldn'T recommend it at all. at least not entirely. if you can get to 15% then its all good, otherwise dont try to go over 5%.

and since miss chances are affected first on your table it means that if you get away with it, the other stats can have a better time at going to their maximum levels of which you can attain.



just a question for you kore.
so if i understand right you are saying that a warrior/rogue should always take the 2hit ring even though it gives only that for them ? no stats at all just 2 hit rating and it will be better then say seal of sylvana and its 3strenght and its 8stamina. is that what you are saying ?

if that is so, then for 29 twinks, you are still saying that the ring is better then dead mens ring. at least thats what i am understanding. i just wanna clear this up, cause i really dont think certain stats like hit rating is better then a bunch of stats all together, otherwise in end game we'd be running with blues who clearly runs better then many epics i've seen. i have yet to see an OH capped rogue in arena's !

[Kore nametooshort]

it all depends on what you want, i dont see a hunter with less then 1k life being any good even with all the hit rating he can get. actually anybody with less then 1k shouldn'T even consider dropping more HP just to get hit rating. of course i'm not talking about those with lucky fishing hat and AGM, but to those who like to twink and fight in the gulch while still trying those once in a while.

let's be real, all those who say that fighting without agm and lucky fishing hat are nothing but stupid people who are just very lucky to be able to get those on during first or second day of trying. it takes literrally months to get those and seriously i'm not gonna wait all that time and stop playing because of it. in such a case, checking up on hit rating versus stamina or mana might be less important. but dropping it to zero would be totally stupid. certain items are BiS like most of you like to say, so why not join the good to the fun ?

i totally understand spidersilk drape and deviate scale belt for those who can put them on. i can understand the ring as well if you are a caster. but i dont see the point in pushing even more if you are to drop your survival for a bit more dps that probably wont have time to be used up.

again back to my first statement, hit rating is a must, but overestimate it to the point of losing greater stats just to get the dps increase. survivng the gulch is already hard has it is, let's not give the oppponents more chance at killing us then they need to.



nice maths...
there are only 1 effective problem into your calcs...
you knocked off hit when it is miss chances that you should of knocked off. since hit rating gets off the miss chances. thus hit capping the offhand, 24% might end up adding a lot more depth to the game, but then again i'm the first one that says that hit capping too much is not good so i wouldn'T recommend it at all. at least not entirely. if you can get to 15% then its all good, otherwise dont try to go over 5%.

and since miss chances are affected first on your table it means that if you get away with it, the other stats can have a better time at going to their maximum levels of which you can attain.



just a question for you kore.
so if i understand right you are saying that a warrior/rogue should always take the 2hit ring even though it gives only that for them ? no stats at all just 2 hit rating and it will be better then say seal of sylvana and its 3strenght and its 8stamina. is that what you are saying ?

if that is so, then for 29 twinks, you are still saying that the ring is better then dead mens ring. at least thats what i am understanding. i just wanna clear this up, cause i really dont think certain stats like hit rating is better then a bunch of stats all together, otherwise in end game we'd be running with blues who clearly runs better then many epics i've seen. i have yet to see an OH capped rogue in arena's !

Warriors and rogues should take the 4 hit ring, not 2 hit.
Hit is a survival stat, it just works differently to hp or dodge or w/e since the reliability it gives you allows you greater survivability imo
At 29 there are better ways of getting the hit cap than sacrificing deadmans hand, gearing for hit at any level should be done sensibly, i would not recommend anyone try using tunic of the dragon slayer for instance to get their hit cap. Same applies for lvl 80s, get your hit for the least sacrifice, dont roll about in greens just because the epics dont have hit rating, use gems or W/e to get capped.
Im not saying that hit cap is better than any amount of stats (i would prefer 1000 stam to 11 hit ^^), however it is generally superior to anyother stat for an offensive class especially
i have never advocated getting OH cap on a rogue, howevre i am led to believe that there are situations where it can have a better DPS increase than a certain amount of agi.